Your Annual Reminder That in the Debate Between AWD and Winter Tires, A Brain Wins.

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 01/02/2018 at 11:50 • Filed to: Tech, Winter, Tires, HHFP

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Its now officially winter here in the Northern Hemisphere and that means 2 things:

Complaining about all that damn snow and cold! *Or* Complaining that all that damn snow and cold isn’t here!

100's of videos and stories arguing how pointless AWD is or the merits of winter tires or vice versa

To the first point, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Also, you should probably move someplace else where there is more [snow/warmth] and stop complaining so much about the damn weather.

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DO I NEED WINTER TIRES?

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Lets start with a couple of quick and easy questions:

First question - Do you live someplace that says you need winter tires, like in Quebec Province, Canada?

Second Question - Is there a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that says you need them?

Answer - !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

See? Helpful already.

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What Is a Winter Tire

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Lets back up for a minute here and explain what I mean by “winter” or “snow” tire.

There are several different grades of tires that are suitable for the cold and white with varying degrees of “winterness” as follows:

Studded winter tires - Winter compound rubber that stays pliable in extreme cold temperatures, deep grooves and large tread blocks, many horizontal and or vertical !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and most importantly metal studs that stick out like little metal fingernails and bite into hard snow and ice. A top tier studded snow tire is the best possible tire for heavy winter conditions...however...studs beat the crap out of the road and are illegal in some places and in parts of the year.

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Studless winter tires - Same as above but without the studs, tire magicians [scientists] have made these !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! than studded tires and as a bonus they don’t have the downsides of metal claws of death digging into the road.

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Mountain snowflake tires -That little snowflake on the mountain means that the tire meets a set standard of winter tire traction worthiness from the RMA/RAC (Rubber magicians of the US and Canada) and although its typically found exclusively on dedicated “winter tires” it can also be found on a handful of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! as well. They don’t have to be dedicated winter tires, but they perform better than the minimum standard to be accepted as winter tires.

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Mud and Snow tires - M + S. This is purely a tread depth/pattern thing and isn’t evaluated by anyone for use in either mud or snow. These are what “all season” tires are. They have deeper tread depth, channels to clear water, mud and snow and a rubber compound thats been formulated to work in a wider range of temperatures. While this does mean an all season tire is more versatile it does have limitations on what it can handle a the extremes of its design parameters. An all season tire is equally unsuitable in cold winter conditions, for example as it would be for a day of hot laps at the track compared to dedicated tires.

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What about summer tires?

You will undoubtedly see a lot of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! this snowy season, and a good deal of them will be “ !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ”. They will probably take place on a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! or on an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and show how you how feeble summer tires are and how superior winter tires are. This is done for illustration purposes because there is an large, obvious difference in performance between the two.

Its also garbage, because anyone who think that summer tires (not all season) are suitable for anything other than summer conditions is an idiot and totally deserves everything they have coming to them when they get out on the road.

SUMMER TIRES SHOULD NOT BE USED IN WINTER CONDITIONS.

Any comparison test that uses summer tires as their baseline should be disregarded. This is about as stupid as doing a comparison on which sunscreens will keep you warmest during a blizzard.

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But I have AWD/4WD, I’m Good Right?

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Look, AWD/4WD is a wonderful thing it really is and you shouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

Now I know its easy to hate on AWD and 4WD as being a kind of crutch, but they do have advantages for starting, and even turning and stopping IF you understand your AWD system and know how to best employ it.

Typically speaking its easier to keep something moving than get it moving right? Its the same with traction, once your tires slip they are more likely to KEEP slipping. If your tires have 30% of their normal dry road traction on snow when they aren’t slipping, for example, they would only have about 10% once they do. Keeping a tire from slipping then is an important component in staying in the limits of grip.

In a front wheel drive vehicle, for example, the tires are being asked to deliver engine power and turn the vehicle, splitting the limited traction available into two paths which increases the likelihood that you will overload the limited traction and go from a static friction state, were the grip is stronger to a dynamic friction state...slipping...where your tires aren’t being fully effective. In an AWD vehicle, half that drive force is being diverted to a different set of wheels meaning the chance of overpowering the front tires is lessened. If the turn is uphill it also means that the weight transferred away from the front tires will be mitigated through increased traction at the rear.

A similar effect happens with slowing down, by using engine braking an all wheel drive system will naturally balance the load to all tires minimizing the chance of a destabilizing slip and increasing the effectiveness of engine braking on loose surfaces.

If you have a decent amount of car control AWD also has the ability to alter the type of slip condition you might encounter as well, for example if you go into a corner and you are understeering, you can get on the brakes lightly and apply power to induce a yaw and get neutral or go to oversteer. Alternatively if you are oversteering you can usually apply power to correct this to a limited degree as the fronts will apply a small amount of force to bring the car back to neutral, even in a slip condition.

“AWD doesn’t help you turn or stop!” I hear you shout. First !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ...never mind. Second, correct. It will not change the maximum adhesion of the tire to the road surface. You will stop shorter and grip harder with dedicated winter tires and your AWD system will be more effective in every way.

The bottom line - AWD prevents you from getting stuck more often and has some limited winter weather maneuverability advantages. That’s not a bad thing, is it?

Traction/Stability control (TCS)

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Traction and stability control systems, like abs, are reactive means of regaining static grip. A good traction management solution is a good way to keep physics from getting out of hand in a slid and its somewhat effective in helping keep static grip but its basically a bandaid on a larger problem.

Its also worth noting that some traction control systems may make things worse, cutting power when you need to spin the tires to clear the treads or to power through deep snow, for example. These systems are a net benefit to the winter drive in most cases and do generally aid in keeping a car pointed straight and moving forward.

What it comes down to, however, is that your 4 tires are the only thing connecting the car to the road and there is no AWD/4WD or traction management system that can change the grip of those tires. However, to argue about which traction solution is death on wheels and which one is magic pixie dust is to miss the point in the same way that arguing about whether shirt or pants is best.

The real Question is:

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Do You Have a Brain?

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Being aware of how snow works, how a car works IN snow and how people flip their tops when cars meet snow is the single best thing you can do to increase your odds of safely traversing snow. Team O’Neil Rally school founder Tim O’Neil says it best in my opinion.

The best thing you can do to increase your winter safety: Be a good driver.

Test your traction in a safe location respective of your conditions (do donuts in a parking lot).

Increase your following distance.

Slow down.

know your vehicles limits of traction and avoid slopes and streets that will challenge them.

SLOW THE HELL DOWN!

Assume people on the road will do stupid things and try to anticipate what you can do...when they do.

Be prepared to be stuck and how to get out.

Keep your head on a swivel, and try to anticipate other drivers moves.

Tips like this and many more common sense “use your brain” stuff will contribute more to your safe travel in snow and ice than any number of rubber snowflakes or Torque Active Drive Automatic 4 with AllTraction technology [TADA 4All™].

A super important part of this equation and oft overlooked is steering clear of heuristic traps: ways your brain tries to fool you into making bad choices. Examples:

I’ve driven on snow before, I know what I’m doing

I know this road like the back of my hand

Other people are getting around just fine

My dad taught me to drive in the snow and he never got stuck

Being a good driver is more than car control and it means knowing when you are taking unnecessary risk. Being present and analyzing your driving behavior as well as keeping an eye on other people’s driving is going to be the single most important factor in driving safely in winter conditions.

So with that I can introduce to you:

If traveling safely in winter conditions is a priority for you then work your way up the scale as high as you can afford. Do you NEED AWD? No. Do you NEED winter tires? Maybe not.

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SHOULD I BUY WINTER TIRES?

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Yes, If you live someplace where it gets a decent amount of snow and cold and you can afford to...why not? It only makes you safer and more capable. This goes doubly true if you aren’t a very good winter driver. Pro tip: If you think you are a great winter driver, you probably aren’t.

Look, its not a small thing for some to buy a different set of tires for winter and I get that, especially if the winter conditions are infrequent, so the question really shouldn’t be:

Do I need winter tires?

It should be:

What can I do or buy to be a better winter driver?

*Note* This is a significantly reworked repost from this time last year, thanks for indulging me.

DrJohannVegas > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:31

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I’m da bess. Yusssssss.

HammerheadFistpunch > DrJohannVegas 12/29/2015 at 14:32

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WINTER DOMINANCE!!!!!!

djmt1 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:34

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Tyres are and will always be the most important part of a car as far as I am concerned.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:34

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RMA/RAC is Rubber Magicians of America and Rubber Arcanists of Canada, to be more precise. (Because Canadians use words like “Arcanist”.) Also, your lead image puts me in mind of Sabotage, like most other side of car closeups.

HammerheadFistpunch > djmt1 12/29/2015 at 14:35

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But brains is the most important part of the driver. Also, summer tires vs winter tires is ALWAYS a dumb comparo.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:36

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But what if I want to drift bro?

HammerheadFistpunch > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 12/29/2015 at 14:36

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I would star this more if I could. Gif taken from this video.

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 12/29/2015 at 14:37

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“Mad Drifts” is implied in the bullet points between “AWD” and “everyone else”

lone_liberal > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:37

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One thing that should also be mentioned is that if you use studded tires and the roads are bare your traction is actually decreased. I’ve also noticed that a lot of people who go on the internet to tell us that we don’t need AWD live in places that are flat. My current DD is the first AWD vehicle that I’ve owned and believe me, getting started again after stopping at a light in the middle of a big hill is much, much easier than with FWD or RWD.

For Sweden > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:38

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I was hoping for happy drifts but ok

HammerheadFistpunch > lone_liberal 12/29/2015 at 14:39

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AWD is better than not AWD in the snow [all things being equal]. Its just the way it is and the people who disagree can cram it with walnuts.

HammerheadFistpunch > For Sweden 12/29/2015 at 14:39

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its in there too.

lone_liberal > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:41

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Speaking of which, walnut shell tires are excellent in the snow!

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:41

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Just throwing this out there, but NEVER EVER tell yourself that your ABS will save your ass when it’s slick. Sometimes it decides not to work. Sometimes you end up slamming your diff into a ditch that separates the road from a ravine.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:41

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But RWD is more fun! ;)

NinetyQ > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:42

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I only have Brains (maybe) + Winter Tires. My daily driver is FWD without ABS or Traction Control, so getting winter tires makes up for a fair amount of missing tech. I drove like that through last winter, which was very cold and very snowy here, and really didn’t feel like I would have needed the TC or ABS since I had great tires. They make up for a lot.

As for whether they’re worth it or not, I figure once I got past the initial price of buying a second set of used wheels, running winter tires in the winter just saves a bit of wear off my other tires, which offsets most of the cost. So for maybe only a bit more money, I end up being safer year-round (with the ability to buy Summer tires instead of needing compromised All-Seasons).

Berang > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:42

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Pretty sure 90% or more of accidents in winter are the results of people thinking they can drive like there isn’t snow on the road. Because apparently slowing down for conditions pisses 90% of people off.

cazzyodo > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:43

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Q: Do you have summer tires that turn to hockey pucks below 45 degrees?

A: Yes.

Suggested Action: Cut out the middle man and save on your next tire change by simply using hockey pucks.

HammerheadFistpunch > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/29/2015 at 14:44

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not to mention older ABS kinda sucks in the snow. I mean its better than nothing but even my 4 channel on my cruiser gets stumped pretty easy on mixed surfaces.

wiffleballtony > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:44

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Your hierarchy is incomplete. Treads.

dogisbadob > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:45

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You forgot one thing: chains!

Brains and chains :p

HammerheadFistpunch > NinetyQ 12/29/2015 at 14:46

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That’s basically my logic for winter wheels and tires on my wife’s car...well plus its the family wagon so the extra piece of mind is sure nice.

HammerheadFistpunch > cazzyodo 12/29/2015 at 14:46

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you could use M+S tires tho

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:46

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Mine is terrible in any slick conditions. I really wish it wasn’t there, because since it is I get to used to it when it works and am unprepared when it doesn’t.

HammerheadFistpunch > wiffleballtony 12/29/2015 at 14:47

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we all need more mattracks in our lifes.

dogisbadob > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:47

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with such a huge turning radius, sliding is the only way to turn around without making a 10-point k-turn :p

One of the few things Toyota sucks at

HammerheadFistpunch > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/29/2015 at 14:47

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when I lock my center diff it turns mine off for the times I don’t want it...which is nice.

HammerheadFistpunch > dogisbadob 12/29/2015 at 14:48

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chains are a good temporary solution but they don’t really work full time.

cazzyodo > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:50

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Don’t think the FoST would think too kindly of them.

DrJohannVegas > Berang 12/29/2015 at 14:50

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PEBSAW

HammerheadFistpunch > dogisbadob 12/29/2015 at 14:51

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Actually, Im pretty amazed at how short the radius is. When I turn the c-diff lock off I can negotiate some pretty tight turns off road. short(ish) wheelbase I guess.

Luc - The Acadian Oppo > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:54

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What most people fail to realize is that awd helps you go but it doesn’t to a flying fuck to help you stop or turn (powerslides aside).

Tires are THE MOST IMPORTANT part of your vehicle. The rubber is the ONLY thing between you and the road

Winter tires > AWD

AWD with winter tires > anything else

RWD Challenger SRT8 was a 425hp beast with winter rubber. I would go places subarus were getting stuck.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:55

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Other than the ABS being absolute crap, I quite enjoyed driving my time driving in the snow. With the LSD(which I’m now positive it has), it would quite nicely and controllably handle snow. It also is a drift monster in the snow, I’ve never been able to hold a drift longer than in that. It has the perfect amount of power for the snow, enough to stay sideways, but not enough to get you into trouble.

Chris Clarke > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:55

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What if you only ever want to drive sideways?

dogisbadob > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:56

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True, but it would be a great alternative to studs in places where they are prohibited. That way, they’re not chipping away at the pavement when there is no snow on the ground.

You don’t need the snow tires full time, either.

CB > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:57

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Helpful guide. I can’t wait until this gets sent to the FP and the commenters show up.

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 14:57

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Also, if you have brains and something with 4WD but are too poor to afford two sets of tires or don’t have the storage space, a good set of snow rated all terrains will get you through a lot.

itschrome > Berang 12/29/2015 at 15:00

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the thought process of 85% of the owners of awd vehicles.

Seriously I see more awd vehicles off the road than almost any other type in the winter. these people just think, “oh golly gee I have awd I’m impervious to weather situations.” also these same people will just assume awd means they don;t need to bother having decent rubber either. “I mean gee it my tires wear so quickly with awd but I’m sure I can push a few more thousand miles out of them.” that one is an actual quote I heard from a co-worker days before they ran into a ditch during the snow last winter. Further more, don;t get me started on low rolling resistance “all seasons” I can’t even start to explain how stupid that is...

You either buy good tires with a compromise or you compromise and buy good tires. the third choice is you buy the cheapest POS you can buy and then complain when you never seem to have good traction, tire wear, road noise, wet control, dry control, ect... Don;t buy cheap tires and under stand that if you’re buying all season your making a compromise on some front. I run all seasons, they are fine but I picked ones that had excellent wet/snow traction but they are loud and have some draw backs when it comes to cornering and MPG. But fuck it they work enough, I’m not driving a sports car so I don;t tend to push it in the turns and my car has very good sound proofing.

right, sorry for the rant.

OPPOsaurus WRX > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:01

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no you dont need snow tires, step up your game buddy

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:03

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I’ll be good with my all seasons, but others will not be. For those of you on summer tires, here is a guide on how to drive:

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/how-to-survive…

Pixel > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:09

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I put studded snows on the front of my partner’s Corolla Sunday, we got 2” of slush followed by driving rain, this was the email I got after her commute into work

I adore you. And snow tires. How did I drive for seventeen years in New England without discovering the joy and security and fun of good tires in shitty weather.

So yeah, good winter tires can make a hell of a difference.

And yes, I know 2 snows on a FWD car is not optimal, but it was what I could locate in time. I’m trying to locate 2 more and 2 more rims to put them on. However, in the mean time I drilled into her that the car is going to be a bit more tail-happy and to watch out for it.

nerd_racing > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:12

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Have these on my 128i and I love them. Drove through an ice storm last night with barely any traction issues at reasonable speeds.

WiscoProud > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:13

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I learned last night that my neighbor has zero clue on how to drive in snow. Which is surprising considering he grew up in Milwaukee and has a 4x4 (Ford Explorer with IRS, but still). While I was trying to dig him out he mentioned in passing he had never put his truck into 4wd before (its always in auto, so that’s not completely true). He would just mash the throttle and hope for the best. I ended up just driving it for him.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:14

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The tires that you have can really play a factor - I had all-seasons on my car before where they performed reasonably in snow. The all-seasons I have now are barely adequate for dry, warm weather and are basically a death sentence in snow/ice (as I found out last week on my way to get my tires changed, I definitely died at least a couple of times). I’m now running on Blizzaks and it’s just so much better.

Also, “good” all-season tires can’t be determined by brand names; I figured Pirellis should be decent (they were on sale which is why I got them) but the P4 all-seasons are horrible. I know they make excellent performance tires but I think that’s where all their resources have gone (along with F1, I guess).

WiscoProud > Luc - The Acadian Oppo 12/29/2015 at 15:16

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It doesn't help you stop, but it does help you turn. Especially in slow speed situations. Where the front tires will "plow" snow when trying to turn, a fwd will be able to since the tires clear the snow from under themselves. The same principal applies to 4wd. The front tires will claw and help you turn.

jariten1781 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:17

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I just don’t understand why people who know about winter tires (sadly not most) will still rationalize themselves into all-seasons. Sure, it can be done safely and I did it for more than a decade with no issues before someone wised me up, but seriously...there’s no reason to not be safer. Cost is BS (used: buy an 800$ less expensive car; new: roll it into your loan), space is BS (pay the shop 20 bucks to store your off season set if they don’t offer it free and you don’t have a garage/closet/backyard). Gah.

If you have winter and you’re going to drive in it just get damned winter tires.

AWD is fine, there’s nothing wrong with it and it can be super helpful situationally, but it’s secondary.

And yes, you are 100% correct, once you’re out there, no matter what your equipment...don’t be a dummy.

Berang > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 15:24

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I think the issue is that until relatively recently, AWD was pretty much only available in heavy vehicles - which are awful in slick conditions. I would rather drive something light with 2wd than something heavy with 4wd.

And I think people who don’t think AWD helps are mainly people who only connect it with big heavy vehicles.

But if all other things were equal, then yeah AWD is better.

HammerheadFistpunch > G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 12/29/2015 at 15:53

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I’ve got mountain snowflake AT’s on the cruiser and it gets the job done.

BigBlock440 > Berang 12/29/2015 at 15:54

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I disagree. In my experience, heavier vehicles are much more stable in the slick/snowy conditions. They typically put down more weight per square inch cutting through the snow and slush down to pavement, kind of like putting narrower tires on.

HammerheadFistpunch > nerd_racing 12/29/2015 at 15:55

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I just got WS80’s on the nox box, so far so good.

HammerheadFistpunch > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/29/2015 at 15:57

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Yes, by “good” I mean highly rated. I haven’t had anyone I’ve every talk to highly rate their pirellis.

HammerheadFistpunch > jariten1781 12/29/2015 at 15:58

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I sure couldn’t afford a 2nd set of winters, since its 1/5th the cost of my car. but I don’t need dedicated winters since the AT’s I have are mountain snowflake anyway.

BigBlock440 > jariten1781 12/29/2015 at 16:00

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Cost is BS (used: buy an 800$ less expensive car; new: roll it into your loan),

The car I had before my current one cost $800 total, but you can be sure if I found a free car in the same condition I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase it.

Stevo777 > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:04

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Sorry, it was too tempting.

anyways, I throw on (haven’t yet) Pirelli Sottozero’s and I’m practically unstoppable

Xdrive kinda helps also ;)

Goggles Pizzano > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:06

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So you’re saying I need:

AWD + Traction control + Winter tires?

:px

DrJohannVegas > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:09

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Actually, I just swapped the winter rubber on this afternoon.

HammerheadFistpunch > DrJohannVegas 12/29/2015 at 16:11

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FUTURE WINTER DOMINANCE!!!!

Master Cylinder > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:15

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Love my winter tires in the snow. Don’t have none of that AWD or traction control, or even brains, depending on who you ask, though.

*shakes fist at kids on my lawn*

nerd_racing > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:17

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I only lost grip when I wanted to.

Scott > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:19

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I would add that if you live in Germany, and there is snow or Ice on the road... yes you need snow tires... it’s not just s good idea it’s the law.

Also the one aspect most these discussions skip over, and you kind of hinted at it is, where do you live. If you live some place that gets snow for Halloween, and it does not melt until Easter, yes you should seriously consider snow tires. However if you live someplace where an inch of snow causes the schools to close, you probably do not. All season tires are mostly just a rating for operating temperature of the rubber. In other words, unlike dedicated performance/summer tires, all season tires will still be in their proper temperature zone when it drops to freezing or slightly below. Performance/summer tires tend to become like hard plastic at about 50F/10C and will not grip the road as well. All seasons will still grip the pavement at lower temperatures.

Conversely all seasons give up a little maximum grip and don’t work in real hot temperatures, but then if you see freezing weather long enough to warrant all seasons you probably do not see the high temps long enough to worry.

This temperature rating has nothing to do with its ability to grip pavement that is covered in snow or ice. If you live someplace that only gets a few days of snow every winter, all seasons are probably fine, it's the kind of place all seasons were designed for. It’s not really worth the cost to put dedicated snow tires on that will only be helpful a few days a year.

If you get a bit more snow, some all seasons with more aggressive tread patterns may be a good choice, although you may have to put up with lots of road noise.

However if you spend most your winter driving on snow and ice, all seasons are really a poor choice. You can get some good snow and ice tires for not a lot of money, why spend so much of your year taking on the risk of driving with compromised traction.

The fact some places it is illegal to drive on snow and ice without proper snow tires ought to tell you just how much they improve safety.

HammerheadFistpunch > Scott 12/29/2015 at 16:28

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I was going to put in the thing about Germany, but decided to stick to one location. But yes Germany and a few other places mandate winter tires (though Im not sure what the minimum standard for “winter tire” is).

As to your other point, you are 100% correct. Even considering the TYPE of snow you get can play a factor:

Inter-coastal?

Mountain?

Maritime?

They all have their unique quirks. I certainly wouldn’t use anything but winters if I lived someplace that got lots of maritime snow, for example (east coast) but mountain snow is drier and compacts nicely for a little extra grip.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 16:47

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The reason more SUVs end up sliding off the road is due to risk compensation.

Example: I have a RWD BMW. I have all season tires. I know my car isn’t really all that great in snow, so I’m going to be careful so I don’t crash.

Oh look, now I have an AWD Audi Allroad. AWD is great for giving me more accelerative traction, therefore I don’t have to be as careful, since the car will help me out more!

The idea is what with the Audi, you take additional risks due to the extra capability, and have the potential of keeping your accident risk the same as the RWD BMW. Especially since if you forget that AWD or 4WD only helps you accelerate, and does little to nothing under braking or turning.

HammerheadFistpunch > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 12/29/2015 at 16:55

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Good points, though I still side with the folks that say that AWD does do more than start you out, if you know how to use it, it can very much help you turn and stop (up to the limit of mechanical traction)

Berang > BigBlock440 12/29/2015 at 17:02

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More weight per square inch doesn’t make too much of a difference on a slippery surface when there’s only so much tractive force that can be put down before things start to slip.

The bigger deal is simply mass. More mass is harder to get in motion, and it is harder to stop.

This silly video should illustrate the point:

The heaviest vehicles slide the fastest, and do the most damage. Not that anybody should have been driving anything up that hill.

pip bip - choose Corrour > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 17:15

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“Its winter here in the Northern Hemisphere”

it’s summer here in the southern hemisphere.

clear blue skies , 30deg Celsius.

absolutely magic!

HammerheadFistpunch > pip bip - choose Corrour 12/29/2015 at 17:15

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You’ll get yours southern hemisphere! you just wait!

pip bip - choose Corrour > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 17:22

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we don’t get snow like you , ever.

ours might last one single day. and that is only every few years.

HammerheadFistpunch > Berang 12/29/2015 at 17:28

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Actually, BigBlock has a point; how much traction you can put down is DIRECTLY related to vehicle weight (F = µN) Tractive Force = the Coefficient of friction (µ) times the Normal force (N) or weight. More weight per tire means more traction per tire. It does come around though in F=MA but in terms of being able to apply more force to the ground - more N = more better.

mikethebike > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 17:32

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lol summer tires year round in the bay area

HammerheadFistpunch > mikethebike 12/29/2015 at 17:34

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prudhoe bay area? niiice!

DrJohannVegas > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 17:37

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We haven’t really gotten too much winter here, so I am close to declaring that winter has forfeite, probably out of fear. THAT’S dominance.

Berang > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 17:50

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It would be, assuming all other things were equal (although we’d have to admit they usually won’t be).

The problem is sometimes a wheel doesn’t even have to be rolling to overcome the resistance of the road surface. And in such sitations, more mass just equals more sliding.

HammerheadFistpunch > Berang 12/29/2015 at 17:55

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this is true. ITs not a panacea, though my personal experience is that its kinda like a inverted bell curve where it gets worse with weight up to a point, then it starts getting better again. I’m no science man so I can’t explain why it scales that way...but it do.

BigBlock440 > Berang 12/29/2015 at 20:18

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In that video, the trucks look like the slid the slowest, but sure, more weight makes it harder to stop if frictional forces are equal. I’m saying that in my experience, that’s usually not the case, although I’ve never had to panic stop in slippery conditions. General performance (going, turning, stability) has been better with my heavier cars than with my lighter cars.

Some specific examples are a ‘98 Saturn SL (2,200), 1991 Lebaron (2900-ish), 1st gen Sebring/Avenger (3,300-ish) and a Stratus (3,000-ish). Though there’s not as much a weight difference as I initially thought, they still fall in line with how they felt to drive. The Lebaron was terrible, the Avenger was really good (smaller tires, no power, and quite a bit of weight), the Sebring was slightly less so (low profile tires and the V6), the Stratus was somewhere in between but never kept me from going anywhere. The Saturn was downright scary on the highway with anything on it, couldn’t change lanes or you got thrown around, no traction at all, my now wife ended up sliding off the road an rolling it at 25mph around a slight bend that my parents just traversed a few minutes before in their Durango (in 2wd) on half-worn all-seasons. I drove it out of the field after we flipped it back on it’s wheels, so the tires weren’t that bad, there just wasn’t enough weight in the car to cut down to actual road surface and get better traction.

But yes, tires are more important than anything else. My truck I never drove in the snow with the worn tires I got it with, but would spin and slide a little at a stoplight if it was raining. Put a set of mud tires on it, and it’s even better in the snow and slush than anything I’ve driven yet.

A long way of saying that simple theoretical physics doesn’t play out in reality all the time due to a huge number of factors and assumptions that almost never hold true. Especially with snow and the huge difference in friction between driving on top of and cutting down to the road surface.

Berang > BigBlock440 12/29/2015 at 21:28

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I’m only speaking from experience.

The reality is there are so many different variables to consider in theory that it sort of defies explanation. But in practical experience, the best cars I had for snow were also the lightest. In fact the best car I’ve had was a 1st gen Tercel, the previous owner even told me it was his “ski car” because it slid less than his Bronco.

Certainly there are light vehicles which won’t go in snow though.

BigBlock440 > Berang 12/29/2015 at 21:49

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It’s funny that we’ve had opposite experiences. Where do you live? It’s possible snow type and population density play a big part. Also, maybe we have different ideas of what we consider good. In my part of Pennsylvania, often we get two clear lines from traffic, but a buildup of slush/snow/ice between lanes and in the center. There’s also people plowing the snow from their driveways right across the road. Both leave a nice pile of stuff you have to get through and it really throws around lighter cars. Even on completely snow covered roads, it seems to me that my heavier vehicles are just smoother. Maybe it’s a confidence thing, getting thrown around by snow piles and drifts doesn’t help, I don’t know. Maybe the Tercel had pizza cutters and it exerted a similar PSI on the road surface as a heavier vehicle with a wider tire to get the same effect, I don’t know enough about them to say.

Even in deep stuff though, I’ve experienced similar. I had to drive two friends trucks out of the dip from the cabin that we were staying at, probably 20 inches or so with layers of ice in between from melt, a pretty nice hill, at least a mile to the top with a few level spots in between. One truck was a 1st gen Tundra, the other a 94-00 Ram 2500, at least 1,000 lbs heavier than the Tundra. I had to back both truck up and get a couple runs to make it to the top, but the heavier Ram just seemed to plow through and claw it’s way up while the Tundra seemed to dance around on top sliding back and forth. Though we were going uphill, so I didn’t really have to stop, and it was deep so it wouldn’t have been a problem anyway.

Wow, am I ever rambling.

Berang > BigBlock440 12/29/2015 at 21:56

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I lived in Colorado for 12 years. The snow tends to be wet, but it also usually melts off before it can get compacted into solid ice, unless you live in the mountains.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > HammerheadFistpunch 12/29/2015 at 23:42

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Only thing missing from this are “4 Season Tires”... Specifically the Nokian WRG3 and the Hankook Optio 4S.

Better in winter than any All-Season tire... and even better than many cheap winter tires.

Both of these tires also qualify as a “winter tire” according to Quebec law.

But unlike winter tires, it won’t wear out fast if driven in warm conditions.

The Nokian comes with a 100,000km treadwear warranty. The Hankook, like most snow tires, comes with no treadwear warranty... but costs roughly half what the Nokians cost.

I have the Nokians on my car and they worked well in the snowstorm we had here last night.

The only downside to the Nokians is they’re expensive... around CAD$800 for a set (15” wheels) for my Focus.

So even in Quebec, you can get away with not having a dedicated set of snow tires if you go with a “four season” tire.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Berang 12/29/2015 at 23:46

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What also annoys me about that video is everyone is standing around taking videos, but nobody can think to throw some sand/gravel/rock salt onto the roadway.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/29/2015 at 23:47

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In deep snow, you stop faster by locking the wheels.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > dogisbadob 12/29/2015 at 23:51

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And if not chains, cords. And for someone on a budget, zipties!

Berang > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/29/2015 at 23:57

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They’d have to get some first... but you’d think somebody would stop cars from going up.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > jariten1781 12/30/2015 at 00:03

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“I just don’t understand why people who know about winter tires (sadly not most) will still rationalize themselves into all-seasons.”

Because a set of good All Season tires WILL be perfectly fine in places like the Toronto area. I know... I’ve only used all season tires (and most recently, 4 season) for all but 2 of the past 20+ years I’ve driven in the Toronto area. Last year, I drove with a set of cheap winter tires that came with my Focus... and for winter tires, they were shit. They performed about the same as All Season tires I’ve had. And those shit winter tires were replaced with Nokian WRG3 4 season tires... which are an improvement in every way so far.

Cost is NOT BS. Two sets of tires means at least twice the cost.

A set of good quality All Season/4 season tires and not driving like an idiot is all that’s needed to get through a winter without getting into a collision.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/30/2015 at 00:08

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...Maybe if you are at a crawl. But if you are doing 25 and you took a breath, and the air from that breath hits the brake pedal, locking the brakes... Yeah, no. Been there done that, no.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 12/30/2015 at 00:29

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Nah... if you’re going faster, you lock the brakes to scrub off speed. But then the car starts going to the side... so after a couple of seconds, off the brakes, steer where you want to go, back on the brakes, rinse and repeat.

I personally have done that.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Berang 12/30/2015 at 00:30

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That too...

SloWRX > HammerheadFistpunch 12/30/2015 at 07:32

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You value TC way to highly, considering most people turn it off when they are in the snow.

1.21 JIGGA WATTS!!! > HammerheadFistpunch 12/30/2015 at 08:20

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BFG T/A KO2’s = best upgrade I’ve done to my truck yet. Totally worth the $1200 I spent on them (5 tires, replaced my 10 year-old spare). I’ve already encountered two nasty snowstorms that, coupled with 300 lbs of sandbags in my bed, allowed me to get around with ease.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > HammerheadFistpunch 12/30/2015 at 08:28

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That part is the “little”. Mainly it will do the following things:

Stabilize engine braking (apply it to all four wheels)

If you have a differential (i.e. not a transfer case) in the middle, it can help vary power distribution fore and aft

The ABS can help vary the effective power distribution side to side on an axle, assuming the programming allows for this (This also applies to 2WD vehicles as well)

A switchable locker can be invaluable when one wheel is on ice and the other on an axle is not (this defeats even a Torsen diff, as a Torsen works off relative friction forces presented to the tire from the ground)

The only way a 4WD/AWD drivetrain will help you turn is if you slow the hell down prior to turning, and gently accelerate through the turn, to allow the system to apportion power.

If you drive a Subaru/Audi/F-150/Silverado/Jeep/Land Rover the same way you would drive a RWD BMW/Merc/Jag/Lexus shod with snow tires, the system will help you (not arguing that). It won’t change the basic laws of physics, but it will help you from funneling all the power to one wheel on ice.

However, most people assume that the system is infallible, and adjust their driving style to a point where the AWD/4WD is less of a benefit, and more of a hinderance. That is, they drive faster in the snow, and have that little bit more energy from the AWD components, and that kinetic energy has to be dissipated somehow.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > pip bip - choose Corrour 12/30/2015 at 08:35

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In the Southeastern part of the US (outside of the Appalachians), we don’t get snow like Minnesota/the Rockies/Canada in general.

However, we do get ice storms. Those are even nastier than snow storms, as unless you have studded ice tires, you really aren’t going anywhere.

Our freeways grind to a standstill

And to boot, they can make good ice rinks

pip bip - choose Corrour > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 12/30/2015 at 08:51

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sod that!

jariten1781 > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/30/2015 at 09:06

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Yeah, suppose I came off a bit brash. There are places where the cost can be an impact (for a few years I had a rotating cast of 500$ cars, wouldn’t be able to afford it then)...I was thinking more on the lines of folks who buy ‘normally’ (ie 5000$+ used or any new).

And again, I don’t think not having them is unsafe, it’s just safer to have them for little cost/time impact.

Cost is NOT BS. Two sets of tires means at least twice the cost.

Costs don’t double over time. Generally, it’s a one time added cost since the wear on both sets is extended by virtue of cycling them. Plus, once you’ve done it on one DD, the one time cost on the next vehicle is de facto lower if you unload the old setup on the secondary market. You could have a double cost right near purchase if you buy a used car with unsafe all seasons with immediate need for replacement a couple months before winter, but that’s able to be planned and budgeted for as part of your purchase process. I’ve run the numbers a couple years ago. I don’t have them on me, but it was truly a minimum delta cost keeping a vehicle for 4 years (like 15$s a month or something) and almost no delta at all if I kept it for 10.

Santiago of Escuderia Boricua > HammerheadFistpunch 12/30/2015 at 12:03

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Who leaves traction control on in the snow? I always turn it off. I find it easier (and somewhat safer) to have predicable slides. Because rally.

I would also like to say that RWD with an LSD is fantastic with snow tires. The Torsen in my 86 feels great

HammerheadFistpunch > Santiago of Escuderia Boricua 12/30/2015 at 12:14

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Attended by vehicle before the advent of traction control because I despise it generally. however I have noticed that I prefer a vehicle with a stability or a traction control system if I’m actually trying to get some place or if safety is the top priority.

Regarding the torsen...yes. I had one in my rav4 and it was a delight in the snow

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > jariten1781 12/30/2015 at 12:33

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“Costs don’t double over time.”

Oh yes they do. Actually it can be more than double. Because you not only have the cost of the extra tires, but also the extra set of wheels. And winter tires are typically only good for 3-4 winters.

You would think that having 2 sets of tires mean both sets last twice as long. But in reality, unless the person drives twice as much as average, people don’t get the full mileage out of either set before they get aged and start to dry rot... so you have to replace them anyway. And that means doubling the installation/balancing costs as well as doubling the tire costs.

And then you change cars.

And since it’s likely the new car will have a different tire/wheel size, once again you’re MORE than doubling your cost once again.

The Nokians I bought have a 100,000km treadwear warranty. That’s 5 years of driving for me. And 5 years is the age where many tires start to get dry rot. I also estimate that my $5000 Focus (which I’ve had 1 year so far) has 4 years of life left in it.

If I got a 2nd set of wheels and tires, my cost would most definitely double. And by the time I would get anywhere close to breaking even, the car would be due for replacement.

Trust me... I have 20+ of driving in the Toronto area and I have studied this particular issue from all angles.

The people who are the biggest pushers of this are tire makers and tire dealers. And the media is typically on-board because they get advertising dollars from these companies.

jariten1781 > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/30/2015 at 13:17

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Y’all get dry rot up there in 5 years? That would certainly change the numbers if you’re aging out before you’re killing the tread. Down here it’s 10+ (the tire manufacturers recommend replacing at 10 years even if there’s no visible deterioration). I’ve never aged out a tire on a daily before I reached the tread limit and I only go ~12k miles/year. Toys, I’ve aged out, but I don’t drive them in the winter.

There was actually a big push for tire age limits, targeted at 6 years, in the US a decade or so ago after a couple fatal accidents (involving spares that were ~7-8 years old IIRC) but when the NHTSA went out and gathered data they found no actual trend of failures on either in-service or accelerated aged tires manufactured after the year 2000 that were within 10 years of manufactured date with no visible degradation. It was a pretty humorous commenting period since the manufactures were commenting something akin to “Well, we don’t see any safety reason to do it, but yeah! It won't hurt anything so go ahead and put age limits on and we'll sell more/newer tires."

AkursedX > HammerheadFistpunch 12/30/2015 at 13:20

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This year has been quite annoying. I bought a ‘16 STi and have it equipped with Nokian Hakkapelita R2’s and I have been dying to write reviews on both of them. The weather has not cooperated with me at all though as I really need a good bit of snowfall to actually evaluate both of these in what they are supposed to handle the best!

But yeah, living in Buffalo, NY, snow tires are a must. Everything that I drive in the winter has had snow tires on it. No matter what wheel-drive you have, snows are so much better and safer to be on.

HammerheadFistpunch > 1.21 JIGGA WATTS!!! 12/30/2015 at 13:23

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I’ve looked at the KO2 as replacements for when my duratracs go, hopefully they will come down a little in price by then...if not it might be nitto or grabber or something that goes on there.

HammerheadFistpunch > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 12/30/2015 at 13:25

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This is correct, if you have enough snow to move from a molecular flow system to a particulate flow system, ABS is a disadvantage. In sand, for example, you should absolutely not use ABS.

HammerheadFistpunch > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 12/30/2015 at 13:30

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I more or less agree with this. Experience with rwd, fwd and awd cars has given my a preference for AWD regardless of tire choice. When you have awd you have options: Plowing in a corner? Get off the gas and back on to rotate and point the car back in the right direction. Too much rotation, add more power and the car will straiten out. True it only works at slow speeds but most of the time you are driving at slow speeds in the snow especially around corners sharp enough to be an issue. With FWD your options are - plow or plow. With RWD your choices are plow or mad oversteer. With AWD you can manipulate your yaw with a fair degree of control with a little practice.